Posts by Disillusioned JW

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

Disillusioned JW

If you are saying that Licona has moved towards a theologically modernist view, one more in line with agnosticism and atheism, then I consider that a good thing since I am an atheist. But from what I read, including the christianpost.com article you provided a link to, Licona says he believes the Bible is inerrant but that one passage in the Bible was not written to be interpreted literally, but instead was written to be interpreted as a poetic special effect (like when people sometimes say while they made love 'the ground shook').

At https://thebestschools.org/special/ehrman-licona-dialogue-reliability-new-testament/michael-licona-interview/ Licona says:

'As a historian, I realize that a lack of data may prohibit us from affirming the historicity of a report, but does not justify rejecting it. As I read through the Greco-Roman and Jewish literature of that period, I found numerous examples of reports of phenomena similar to those Matthew reports to have occurred at Jesus’s death. These were connected to historical events having a huge amount of significance. In one case, Virgil lists 16 phenomena related to the death of Julius Caesar in what is certainly a poetic genre.

So, for a number of reasons, I posited that Matthew’s raised saints may have been a poetic element of Matthew’s account of Jesus’s death — the addition of “special effects,” you might say. It’s much like we might say that the events of 9–11 were “earth-shaking” or that “it rained cats and dogs.” When North Korea’s leader Kim Jong-Il (right) died in December, 2011, it was reported that a snowstorm hit as he died. Ice cracked on the volcanic Chon lake near his reported birthplace at Mount Paektu. When the snowstorm ended at dawn, a message carved in rock glowed brightly until sunset saying, “Mount Paektu, holy mountain of revolution. Kim Jong-il.” Finally, on the day after his death, a Manchurian crane also adopted a posture of grief at a statue of the dictator’s father in the city of Hamhung. So, the same sort of rhetoric occurs even today.

You cannot dehistoricize a story if Matthew did not intend for it to be read as history.

A few ultraconservatives who have what I regard as an overly wooden view of the doctrine of biblical inerrancy accused me of dehistoricizing the biblical text, asserting that I didn’t believe Matthew’s story because of its supernatural nature. I was shocked! Did it not occur to them that my treatment of Matthew’s raised saints appeared in the context of a large book that contended for the physical resurrection of Jesus? The matter for me was whether Matthew had intended for his readers to think that some saints had actually been raised. My opinion was that he did not. And you cannot dehistoricize a story if Matthew did not intend for it to be read as history.'

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

Disillusioned JW

pistolpete, regarding Michael Licona believing in post mortem experiences, many Christians believe in accounts of Near Death Experiences and some consider such to be scientific evidence of such. Many Christians also believe that use of the Ouija board brings people in contact with evil spirits (whether they be considered demons or spirits of dead humans). So why would Christians think such beliefs by Licona would discredit him as a scholarly authority/expert? https://thebestschools.org/special/ehrman-licona-dialogue-reliability-new-testament/michael-licona-interview/ contains an interview of Licona in which Licona mentions the reasons for his beliefs, including why he believes in Near Death Experiences. In the interview Licona also mentions that he tried very hard to not let his Christian beliefs get in the way of his scholarly approach to the study of whether Jesus was resurrected or not & it mentions why Licona disbelieves (or doubts) the literalness of Matt. chapter 27's account of the bodily resurrection of saints. Regarding the latter, the interview says in part the following:

"Could it be that, on the contrary, it was my detractors who were historicizing a text not intended as history? The biblical authors lived in a different culture from ours. So, there are going to be times when the literal meaning of the text is not how we should interpret it. Now, that’s not always easy for us to determine. Many early Christian males castrated themselves after misinterpreting Jesus’s teaching about some making themselves eunuchs for the sake of God’s kingdom (Matthew 19:12). Hermeneutical blunders can have tragic consequences! And notice these early Christians adopted a literal interpretation of a text not intended to be understood in that manner. If they could make such an error while being far more connected than are we to the culture in which Jesus lived, how much more might I be vulnerable to making a similar error!

I empathize with the concern of the ultraconservatives that, taken to an extreme, one might attempt — as many already have — to make the same move with respect to Jesus’s resurrection and claim it’s a metaphor or “special effects.” But I provided reasons in my book why such a move will not work; specifically, we can establish that Jesus’s apostles clearly intended for us to understand Jesus’s bodily resurrection as a historical event. It is far from clear that Matthew had the same intent when it came to the saints raised at Jesus’s death.

Most of the highly respected evangelical scholars sided with me in the controversy. Not all agreed with the interpretation of Matthew’s raised saints I had proposed. But they were all in agreement that this was entirely an interpretive matter and had nothing to do with whether the Bible contains any errors."

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

Disillusioned JW

pistolpete, regarding Licona's acknowledged belief in ghosts and in demons, a great many of his fellow Christians believe in such (and the New Testament teaches the existence of demons) and many Christians also believe in ghosts (heck, the KJV calls the Holy Spirit the Holy Ghost and some NT accounts of the ascended Christ make it appear that some of Christ's disciples believed in apparitions and ghostly spirits of the dead), so why would Christians think that his beliefs in such discredits him as a NT scholar and historian in the minds of Christians?

Regarding micro scale psychokinesis, I remember reading that even Carl Sagan in one of his agnostic/skeptic books and Sam Harris in his book The End of Faith (I don't have citations available for such at this time) said there seems to be scientific evidence for micro scale psychokinesis. Sagan and Harris later recanted their ideas of micro scale psychokinesis being scientifically plausible after fellow non-theistic skeptics later criticized those views of theirs.

john.prestor, wasn't The Acts of Philip written much later than 1 Corinthians? If so, how could the writer of 1 Corinthians have gotten the idea of the 500 witnesses from The Acts of Philip?

17

Why a 1914 Return Date is Impossible

by Sea Breeze in

revelation 20:2-3. and he [jesus] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan, and bound him a thousand years,.

and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.. we see that the millennial reign begins with satan being bound.

he will be bound for 1000 years.

Disillusioned JW

The WT admits they don't know the day or the hour his reign will begin (or did begin) but they claim (or used to claim) to know the month and year, and as a result they claim to not be contradicting the verse regarding the day and hour.

48

An Expert Explains the Beginning of Christianity with Dr Richard Carrier

by Rocketman123 in

here is an interesting discussion about how christianity probably began.

hierarchical political interest may have been involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=civ8gscbo_g.

Disillusioned JW

I am very impressed by much of what I have read from Richard Carrier's atheistic scholarly writings.

17

Why a 1914 Return Date is Impossible

by Sea Breeze in

revelation 20:2-3. and he [jesus] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan, and bound him a thousand years,.

and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.. we see that the millennial reign begins with satan being bound.

he will be bound for 1000 years.

Disillusioned JW

Update: SeaBreeze, I now see that you recognize that technically the WT teaches Christ's rule is more than 1,000 years.

17

Why a 1914 Return Date is Impossible

by Sea Breeze in

revelation 20:2-3. and he [jesus] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan, and bound him a thousand years,.

and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.. we see that the millennial reign begins with satan being bound.

he will be bound for 1000 years.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, while it is true that Charles T. Russell taught that the 1,000 portion of Christ's reign would begin in 1914, decades later the WT was teaching the 1,000 year portion would be later. During the time of Franz and Knorr (at least since the 1970s) the Watchtower while teaching that Christ's reign started in 1914 CE were also teaching his 1,000 year reign was in the near future, and that it would be after the battle of Armageddon. You are equating the 1000 year reign of Christ with the entire time period of Christ's reign, but the WT (at least since 1970) does not do so. The WT (at least since 1970) says that the 1,000 year reign of Christ is only a portion (the main portion yes, but not the full portion) of Christ's reign.

Around the year 1970 the WT was teaching that the 1,000 year portion of Christ's reign had a very high likelihood of starting in the year 1975 (or very soon afterwards). [They were teaching that the year 1975 would be the completion of the 6,000th year of human existence and they were teaching that each of the creative days of Genesis were 7,000 years long.] Around the year 1970 the WT was also teaching that Christ began his rule as God's king in the year 1914. I was raised in the WT religion from infancy and I got baptized into the WT/JW religion in the early 1980s, and a few weeks ago I reviewed their literature from the 1974 time period regarding this topic, so I know what I am writing about. Note the following evidence from the WT literature.

The WT published a book called God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached with the copyright date of 1973. Notice that title says the 1,000 year reign was in the near future at the time the book was published, not that in the past. Page 12 in ph. 11 says in part the following:

'... little did Nebuchadnezzar know that at the end of those "seven times" of Gentile domination in 1914 the "King of the heavens" would give the "kingdom of mankind" to the one whom he wanted to--His Messiah!--Daniel 9:25.'

Page 44 in ph. 41 says in part the following:

"According to the Bible's timetable, the beginning of the seventh millennium of mankind's existence on earth is near at hand, within this generation. Now as at no time in the past the inhabitants of earth need the binding and abyssing of Satan the Devil in a real way. The world events immediately ahead of this are about to take place, and mankind's great adversary and oppressor will be sealed up in the abyss for ten centuries of time. The royal rule of Christ and his resurrected congregation for a thousand years of peace and blessing to the human family is before us with all its glorious possibilities!"

The final chapter of the WT's book called God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached. Ph. 1 of that chapter on page 398 says the following:

"THE KINGDOM of God by his Messiah for a thousand years has approached! The basis for announcing this good news is solid, firmly established in inspired Scripture and in world events since 1914 C.E. The millennial kingdom's approach means that the political governments of imperfect, dying human rulers are approaching their end. "In the days of those kings," said the inspired prophet Daniel to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, "the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."--Daniel 2:44."

On page 405 of the book the first part of ph. 15 says:

'Thus when the glorious thousand years of Messiah's reign over all the earth are ready to begin, a "grand salvation" will indeed have been wrought by God for all his loyal ones on earth. Just think of it! For these loyal ones there has come a good riddance of all the wicked ones on earth and in the invisible realm about the earth. There can now follow a preservation of such loyal ones all during the thousand years of God's Messianic kingdom, the loyal ones of the "great crowd" being the ones that will forever keep living upon the cleansed earth.'

Sea Breeze, I agree with you that the WT's teaching that Christ became king in 1914 is an erroneous teaching and that it conflicts with the Bible's teaching. It is one of the reasons I stopped believing in the WT/JW religion.

17

Why a 1914 Return Date is Impossible

by Sea Breeze in

revelation 20:2-3. and he [jesus] laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and satan, and bound him a thousand years,.

and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.. we see that the millennial reign begins with satan being bound.

he will be bound for 1000 years.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, the WT does not teach that is Jesus is ruling on the Earth. They teach that Jesus is ruling in heaven over the Earth. They teach that Christ (and also the 144,000) will not be on Earth during the 1,000 years, but be in heaven during that time. They teach that Christ is currently ruling among his enemies (while the enemies are active, hence their application of the 'nation against will rise against nation' and there will be 'famines in one place after another' of in Matt. chapter 24 and their application of Psalms 110:2) and that the 1,000 year period is the portion of his reign when his chief enemy (Satan) will be in the abyss and thus 'unable to mislead the nations anymore'. The WT thus teaches that Christ's reign is more than 1,000 years - something that even some JWs don't realize the WT teaches. Those teachings of them might conflict with the Bible, but nonetheless those are some of their teachings.

14

Testimony of a JW elder and pioneer

by Hairyhegoat in

this post is from another ex jw site but the info is such a good read !

hhg.

testimony of a jw elder and pioneermy youthful exposure to religious services was limited.

Disillusioned JW

I am sad that Hairyhegoat left the truth - namely atheism and naturalism. I wish that by the age of 13 I had become an atheist and a scientific naturalist. Such would have been feasible if I hadn't been so indoctrinated by the WT literature and its other avenues of indoctrination. If by age 13 I had read all three parts of the Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, or the words of Robert Ingersoll (of which the atheist Joseph Lewis wrote a book called Ingersoll the Magnificent) regarding religion, or if I had read pro-evolution books by scientists, it would have made a huge difference and would caused me to not believe in a personal god by then, if also be not an outright atheist and a naturalist by then.

I am glad though that Hairyhegoat recognized that a number of the teachings of the WT are incompatible with the Bible. But most of the Bible is incompatible with modern scientific knowledge.

I notice that Hairyhegoat was disappointed that from the point of view of atheistic naturalism there is no ultimate purpose for the universe, including our lives. But for me the idea that there is no ultimate purpose for the universe, including our lives, is a big relief. That is because it means I don't have a purpose being forced upon me by a supernatural being (such as a god). It also means there are no evil spirit beings (of any kind) to fear. It means I can decide for myself what to do with my life; I can choose a purpose for myself. That kind of purpose is not a self-deceptive fiction nor any other kind of fiction. Being an atheist means I am fully free to think to for myself and to question what others say - something which is very important to me. It means that if an idea strongly seems to be utter nonsense (like many of the teachings of most religions), with no evidentiary support, then I can reject it instead of feeling compelled to force myself to accept it.

Yes being an atheist and a naturalist means there is no prospect at all for eternal life, but it is best to accept reality.

26

Was your faith in Armagedddon connected to current events?

by Wasanelder Once in

remember when nixon resigned?

the big a was here some said.

remember 1986 and the "international year of peace and security?

Disillusioned JW

During the 1980s, President Ronald Reagan's massive increase in spending in weapons systems combined with his cold war against the U.S.S.R., and his promotion of a spaced anti-missile defense system (which people called a 'Star Wars' defense system), caused me to fear (at times) that the world might come extremely close to a nuclear war. The "International Year of Peace and Security" had me somewhat wondering if a peace deal would come that would fulfill the biblical prophecy of a cry of "peace and security".